What are your opinion on Tier Lists?

[Zig]

Right, this is an important topic IMO. What are YOUR Opinions on SSB Tier Lists, If any doesnt know what they are:

From Wiki:

A tier list is a ranking of each character's metagame, based on tournament settings. It is an indicator of how each character is expected to perform, under tournament settings, in relation to the rest of the cast. Thus, tiers measure the potential of each character based on all currently known techniques and strategies that have been shown to be useful in tournaments. Tier lists are common in fighting games as well as many other competitive games involving a large selection of characters.

The tier list does not say anything about any single matchup. For example, if two players are equally matched in skill, and one uses Fox and the other uses Pichu, the tier list alone can not be used to predict the outcome of the match accurately. This is because the tier list looks at a character's overall potential and effectiveness, and individual matchups can be soft or hard counters that affect but do not entirely determine a character's ranking. For instance, in the aforementioned example, if the Fox vs. Pichu matchup was dramatically tipped in Pichu's favor, but Pichu suffered from poor matchups against every other character in the game, it would mean that Pichu beats Fox, but Pichu is still worse than Fox.
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There has been a lot of contreversary in the making of Tier Lists:

From Wiki:

Controversy arises periodically over the existence of tiers, most notably during the "tier wars" at GameFAQs and Smashboards. Some smashers, called "anti-tiers," argue that every character can be played equally well. In support of this argument, they claim that the tier list creates a cycle in which players choose only higher-tiered characters, and thus only those characters develop an advanced metagame, thereby reinforcing the tier list.

The removal of many advanced techniques from Melee in Brawl has led many to believe that Brawl is balanced enough not to warrant a tier list. Masahiro Sakurai's statement that he does not want Super Smash Bros to be competition-driven[1] also appears to have encouraged anti-tier sentiments and anti-competition sentiments in general.

The unanimous consensus of competitive players is that tiers do exist. They argue that it would be almost impossible to balance a game of unlike characters; without specific redesign, characters would have the tendency to fall into tiers by dint of their myriad variables (differing attack power, running speed, etc.). Furthermore, the developers cannot foresee top-level s

trategies, and thus even their deliberate efforts could fail to balance the game at a professional level. Years of empirical results support this conclusion as well; national tournament-winners of Melee almost always use Marth, Fox, Falco and Sheik.

The list itself is subject to change at any time. Optimal strategies for each character shift largely over time, changing the tier list as well. Anti-tiers use this point to argue that the tier list cannot be true if it changes. Pro-tiers respond by pointing out that it may be true for a particular, static metagame, and that this argument doesn't weigh against the existence of tiers themselves, but merely against a particular metagame.

Tiers exist at all levels of play, though the rankings are highly changed from casual play to competitive play, due to different strategies and a different metagame from the tournament level.

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Too be honest, I'm one of the "Anti-Tiers" I dont see the point in tiers seeing as every character can be played well, and seeing as Nintendo themself do not make the List, It's just fan-made BS (BullShit, excuse the language. ). Because, they could be making a list of the characters they are good with and calling it a tier list.

So, what does everyone else think?

[waveguidebuizel]

Ugh, I hate those tier lists!  It's really annoying when people say "Oh, this character is better than that one," basing it on tiers.  These lists result in overused characters, which I tend to hate (like Marth in Melee or seemingly Ike in Brawl--I like Marth more in Brawl now).

[Zig]

They havent made a Tier List for Brawl yet, however, N64's and Melee's made me giggle, Pretty funny stuff.   (Placed in order of how they are on Smash Wiki)

N64:

Top - Pikachu, Kirby, Ness.
High - Fox, Captain Falcon.
Middle - Jigglypuff, Mario, Yoshi.
Low - Donkey Kong, Luigi.
Bottom - Samus, Link.

Melee:

Top - Fox, Falco.
High - Sheik, Marth, Peach.
Middle - Captain Falcon, Ice Climbers, Samus, Dr.Mario, Jigglypuff, Mario, Ganondorf.
Low - Link, Luigi, Donkey Kong, Roy, Young Link, Pikachu.
Bottom - Yoshi, Zelda, Mr. Game and Watch, Ness, Kirby, Bowser, Pichu, Mewtwo.


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xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

Ahh, Pichu better than Mewtwo? I'm sorry, but, that's the biggest load of BS I've heard, since Pokemon Channel.

[waveguidebuizel]

Really, Samus and Link on bottom for N64?  Never knew that!  I would've thought that Marth is at the top tier, though.  But meh, I don't care for these lists anyways.

[Nigachu]

I play a bit competively (got third place at school tournament using Diddy. Bananas FTW. ) and am always  kinda curious to hear of the the new brawl tier list due to my competive nature when it comes to games, but that won't happen for quite some time.
Other than that I kinda wish tiers don't exist mostly due to the fact that n00bs flock to the characters that are on the top of the list, ex Marth, Falco ect.

[waveguidebuizel]

Yeah, I admit it is sort of interesting to see how the list turns out, but also, as you said, the noobs always use the higher-ranked ones.  I remember you said that in random play, there's always an Ike.

[Zig]

SmashBoards have got a Tier List out.
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Top Tier
Snake – No one's arguing this.
Meta-Knight – See above.
Marth – He's just as great as he was in Melee. What he now lacks in speed he makes up for in power.
Mr. Game and Watch – Improved recovery, improved killing power, faster, better shield. G-Dub makes up for his sloppy performance last time around.
Falco – One of the most effective projectile spams, even though it can be ducked by a few characters. His new reflector is both good and bad for him, but it helps eliminate choices for approaching characters. His recovery is no longer terrible since no one falls as fast.
R.O.B. – Good projectiles but they must be charged so he can't spam that effectively. Some of his moves come out fairly slowly, especially some aerials. His recovery, however, is godly and allows him to WOP. A great counter for many characters.

High Tier
Pikachu – His usmash was nerfed, but d-smash stabs shields, racks up damage, and sends the opponent up for a thunder, which was also buffed. His projectile is still very useful on many stages, sideB for recovery now reflects many projectiles, and upB sweetspots almost instantly, not to mention that it can cancel off the ground. His aerials seem a bit less useful though.
Toon Link – Good at linking attacks and great at camping with what's likely the best projectile spam in the game. He’s fast and still has KO power, but he's really quick to die and his recovery and grabs are lackluster.
Wolf – His blaster is pretty annoying, he’s powerful with not that big of a speed loss, and his multi-hit attacks lessen the loss in damage for spammed moves. However, he’s the fastest faller in the game and has a poor recovery that doesn’t even sweetspot the edge.
Ice Climbers – Chain grabs are still just as good. The AI also works much better on Nana, so she doesn’t die as easily. Plus, both Climbers can now grab the edge. IC’s are very strong for such light characters, and Popo can survive by himself more easily now.
Luigi – His recovery is vastly improved with the Luigi Tornado, making his slightly odd combination of sideB and upB more doable. His fireballs take longer to come out but most of his moves have little to no windup lag. However, his floaty nature makes him somewhat hard to control.
King Dedede – Chain grabs again, plus annoying Waddle Dees. He's the hardest character to kill, since he's heavy, he has multiple jumps, and his upB goes very high. His stronger, slower moves are balanced by his disjoint and quick tilts. However, many faster characters can destroy him since he doesn’t have a great defensive strategy.
Bowser – His tilts are actually pretty fast, especially for a slow character. Whirling Fortress still works wonders on light characters that happen to be annoying him. Bowserciding is always an easy-to-pull-off strategy should he find himself in a tough situation or one stock up.
Kirby – Buffed hardcore. He lost his Kirbycide throws, but his aerial hammer is much better and he can still inhale to kill himself or stick his opponent underneath the stage. No projectile, but he can steal his opponent's to cancel it out. Lightweight, but with a good recovery.

Mid Tier
Wario – He’s a very unpredictable character, despite the fact that he’s a dork. His recovery, while it takes forever and is fairly gimpable, is still great. He also lasts forever, and he’s been dominating tournaments.
Donkey Kong – Much like Bowser, he's improved in most aspects. His range is still great, his speed has been upped, and DK-cides are always an option, as are cargo throws. It’s a bit of overkill with a billion spikes, and his vertical recovery is still garbage, but he’s better off than he was last time.
Lucario – This guy has pretty good range on most of his attacks, and a decent projectile even when it's not charged. His pseudo-SHUFFL is always a good thing, and his damage multipliers really help him against characters with lower KO power.
Pit – He has some odd tilts and smashes, but performs pretty well in close range. His projectile is very irritating but does pretty lackluster damage. His recovery is decent when used correctly but can be cancelled fairly easily.
Zelda – Din’s Fire can juggle and is overall a great projectile for edgeguarding, as it forces opponents to airdodge or get raped. Her smashes and aerials have been buffed, and she has a lot of great matchups. However, she’s still light and her recovery is predictable.
Olimar - People were really afraid of this guy early on, but he's so light and his recovery is so awful that there's little to worry about. He annhilates heavy or large characters but can't do a thing about anyone faster than him.
Fox – Not as good as he used to be, but you don't see many people crying about it. He definitely has been nerfed in many respects, but he still has his place to shine.
Diddy Kong – He’s fast and banana-ful, but his recovery must be charged, which is bad against good spikers, especially since he’s so light. His projectile is pretty bad, and 'naners can be used against him. Not as great as people thought initially.
Zero Suit Samus – She’s good in a lot of respects, but her recovery is gimpable even with her third jump, plus her projectile is pretty crappy. Her smash attacks seem gimmicky, and lots of moves are pretty pointless. Good range and fast, but extremely weak and her recovery doesn’t help.
Lucas – Great projectile spam, great edgeguarding with upB, a somewhat gimpable recovery, creepy magnet tricks. He would be in high tier, but he gets chaingrabbed. He might end up even lower.
Yoshi – Better than last time, admit it. His recovery is definitely helped by his newer upB, and his eggs seem to be more useful this time around. The loss of DJC actually helps him in many cases.However, he's still not good enough to get higher than bottom of mid tier.

Low Tier
Mario - Cape isn't as good, FLUDD is on the verge of useless, he can't KO that well. He is slightly redeemed by his ledgeguarding and good approach. He’s not speedy but certainly not slow. Being the all-around character just doesn’t seem to be good enough.
Pokemon Trainer – His Pokemon don't balance out that well, and excel in different parts of the game while severely lacking in others. The fatigue system ends up screwing him over when he has to switch to get a KO. Fun to use, but not that great.
Ike – He’s powerful but very slow. The fact that he was popular very early on makes people know exactly how to beat him. Almost anyone faster than him can beat him easily.
Sonic - Fast runner, slow attacks. Something's wrong here. He does have a good approach, and he can move around the stage incredibly quickly. His recovery is good, but it’s somewhat gimpable. Only people who are willing to put in lots of time should bother with this guy.
Samus – Nerfed. Her smash attacks aren't as good and her missile seems slower. Her spike is still hard to hit with, and she doesn’t have a great way to deal with opponents above her.
Sheik – Triple-nerf. She has very little of what she had back in Melee, so people can find a new most annoying character now. How the mighty have fallen.
Link – This guy just doesn’t deserve to be this bad. Somewhat powerful, but his sluggishness makes him much less playable. His boomerang doesn’t hit on the way back, his arrows don’t go as far as Toon Link’s, and his horizontal recovery is pretty bad.
Ness - He gets chaingrabbed even worse than Lucas, and has fewer redeeming qualities. Although he has a few good matchups, he isn’t much better than he was in Melee. Shame.
Peach - Nothing compared to what she once was. D-smash isn’t that good, and recovery seems nerfed. She retains her lightness and is KO’ed extremely easily.

Bottom Tier
Jigglypuff - Nerfed hard. Rest doesn't kill as early, WOP isn't as impressive since more characters can do it now, plus where most characters die at higher percentages in this game, Jiggz just seemed to stay at the same pitiful death rate.
Ganondorf – He runs slower, attacks slower, and recovers just as badly as he did in Melee. Ganoncide is his only improvement, everything else has gotten way worse.
Captain Falcon - Captain Falcon can't do much of anything this time around. Poor approach, lackluster recovery, no killer knee... he's got it bad. He also rounds out the fact that the bottom tier is made up of Melee’s high tier.
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Out of all three tier list's this one seems the best, In my opinion. Most of the expanations are right.

[waveguidebuizel]

Ugh, R.O.B. is so annoying as a computer!

Well, I'm surprised at a few of these, but not at all.  Hehe, Nigachu got Marth and Falco right!

Heh, I don't know a lot of these terms they use!  =>.<=

[Nigachu]

I should have guessed snake would be top tier. A snake player won they last three tournaments I went to . His tilts are considered KO moves  . At least Mr. G&W and Pikachu are high on the list. LOL, Captain Falcon can't catch a break can he.